S3E6: Followership: The Foundation of Great Leadership (feat. Lauren Weber, MD)
Brooke
Welcome to Learning to Lead, a podcast about leadership, teamwork, and reimagining healthcare. This podcast is for learners, educators, and healthcare professionals interested in building leadership skills in a supportive community.
We are your hosts Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas, and Brooklynn Weber.
Together we bring you conversations with emerging and established leaders, deep dives and hacks to help you become the best leader you can be.
Brooke
Welcome everyone back to Learning to Lead. Today with us is Lauren Weber, MD. Lauren is a clinical cardiologist and currently practicing with the Wenatchee Valley Medical Group in Central Washington. She's also the co-founder and lead of strategy at All Levels Leadership, a healthcare consulting, education and coaching company dedicated to helping everyone in healthcare at any level effectively lead and influence the decisions that impact their practice patients and lives outside of work. She enjoys spending time outdoors with her husband and three beautiful active boys. Lauren, welcome to our show. It's a delight to have you here today.
Lauren
Thank you. I'm so excited and honored to be here.
Brooke
So I guess we'll start off with just getting to know you a bit. So what initially brought you into healthcare?
Lauren
Yeah, I wish I had one of these stories where I was holding a stethoscope at five years old and always knew that I wanted to be a doctor, but I don't. It happened a little bit less organically Through high school I really thought I was going to be a violinist and probably around my senior year of high school I started to get some real challenging questions that I think were really good in terms of what are your other life goals, what do you want your work-life balance to be? What do you want in terms of being able to support your family? And then I think one of the others that was really provocative was my instructor at the time said, you definitely have what it takes to become a professional musician, but you also have to be ready for the day where somebody who's six years old comes in auditions and blows you out of the water, is like the best on their worst day that you'll ever be on your best day.
I didn't love that in addition to the answers to all those other questions. And so I went into college really kind of not knowing what to do. I declared as pre-med and I would say over the time I got very comfortable with this idea of being very minded in liking that, but also really liking being in a field where I was going to help and interact with people. And so by the time I was ready to apply, very solid in the fact that I wanted to be a physician, but that's how I got into healthcare.
Brooke
Wow, that's great. That is such a unique story. And so how did you evolve from medical school to where you are today?
Lauren
I'm going to try to keep this a brief story because my journey is not a linear line. I went into medical school thinking I was going to be a surgeon of some kind after training, had a change of heart, did my internship in internal medicine, and then I took a break in training actually. So in the Navy, after your first year of residency, you can go do one of three things. You can be a flight surgeon, which is aviation medicine, a dive medical officer or a general medical officer on a ship. Earlier in medical school, I had had an experience in between the summer where I got to go train with a T 45 jet trainer squadron, so affectionately what they call just self-loading cargo. And so I was able to fly around for several weeks and after that experience I absolutely knew I was going to pursue aviation medicine after internship.
So I did that with the Marines for two and a half years, really invaluable experience. Came back, finished my residency, which I will say is a very humbling experience after having stepped away for two years to come back to training, did my chief year and then stayed on at Walter Reed to continue my cardiology fellowship. And after that was really very lucky to have a lot of opportunities. So I became the associate program director for the cardiology fellowship program. Ultimately went on to become the deputy chief for the Department of Medicine. So really having a lot of leadership and teaching experience, both of the things I loved. In 2020 2021, it was time to step away from military service. And so there are actually quite a few veterans here in Wenatchee, Washington. Sort of unbeknownst I reached out to a couple of people that I had trained with in the past, which is how I ended up here practicing in beautiful central Washington.
Rahul
Thanks for sharing that, Lauren. I loved listening to that and it reminded me of how we got connected to you with two of our colleagues here at Quinnipiac, Jennifer Riling and Andre Nero. So shout out to both of them and I remember them telling me, have you heard about Lauren Weber? She's a great cardiologist and she's been talking about followership and I'm just so delighted that we got to know you through them.
Brooke
So Lauren, what is the origin of All Levels Leadership?
Lauren
This is a good story. I think it's a good story, but I'm biased of course. So I was in the military, as you know, and all of the people at all levels leadership are all veterans. And so two of my other partners were having brunch in Bethesda, Maryland, both about to retire from the military service and thinking about what is it that we want to do afterwards. We are all deeply connected to teaching and mentoring, and we all are very deeply connected to really bringing leadership skills and making them as applicable, as approachable to people. And they were talking about we should really start a leadership coaching consulting education company. And so my partner Jess said, hang on a second, we've got to get Lauren on the phone. So they call me and put me on speaker, I can hear the people in the background and they said, Lauren, we know what we want to do when we grow up. We want to start a leadership company. And I said, I'm in because we had been part of this conversation for a very long time. So we met actually later that summer and spent a whole weekend kind of in a apartment in Leavenworth. And when we left we had a mission statement, a vision statement, a structure. We were able to launch about a year later and have picked up some clients and are just really in love with what we do. And I have probably the best team anybody could ask for.
Brooke
Wow, that's awesome. And yeah, the work you guys are doing is super important and admirable.
Lauren
Thank you.
Brooke
That's a good segue into talking about followership. So Lauren, you do a lot of work on followership and healthcare and that is some of the most impactful work that we've come across as yours. So for our listeners, can you start by telling them what is followership?
Lauren
Well, first of all, thank you for that. I appreciate the compliment very much. I think the question of what is followership is an interesting one because I will say the definition has been a little bit dynamic. If you were to Google even just a couple of years ago, what is followership? You would get the willingness to follow the leader. And so I think this conversation builds on when you ask the question, what is followership? Because followership has been around for a very long time. I'm talking 15 hundreds. We've been exploring the dynamic between followers and leaders. But you see it sort of start to show up in leadership doctrine, I would say in the 1950s. And those early depictions of followers are pretty negative. So think sycophant, lemming, no original thought in your head. You're just robotically doing what it is that you're told. And I think that tracks, because I like to challenge people and ask them, what is your initial feeling when somebody says you are a follower?
And if you're anything like me, it's a little bit negative. When somebody first asked me, it was actually Josh Hart Sue who asked me to talk about followership. I was a little offended. I was military officer, I was a chief resident. I'm like, not a follower, I'm a leader. And that's where that comes from is those early depictions of followers where it's just this very simple definition, willing to follow the leader, but what ends up happening in the eighties, we'll say, and as industry changes from more agricultural individual roles into industries that require team-based initiatives and success, as we start to see followers get a little bit more agency into the role, because now more than ever, we recognize that how people function in a team and how they support their leaders is really the lynchpin to success or failure. And so I'll give you an example.
So in an orchestra, we know the conductor intuitively is the leader and he is directing the orchestra. What happens if a trombone player gets up and walks off stage? That's like a bad day. And to delineate followers from teams a little bit where team, we talk about the collective follower, we talk about the individual. What if the trombone player has been whipping up the other trombone players in the back and now the entire trombone section gets up and walks off stage? That's a really bad day. And so we start to see really the influence that an individual can have on their team and on their support of the leader. So Josh Hartzel, Jess b and I worked really hard to really rethink and redefine what followership is. And we published that a couple of years ago. I'm actually going to read it for you. It's a longer definition, but I think it's an important definition.
Do we redefine followership as the leadership practice by individuals who are in positions of responsibility but not authority whereby they exert their influence to execute the vision of their leaders or accomplish organizational goals? And for healthcare, I think for me this definition really resonates because when you think about being in a position of responsibility, which I would say everybody in healthcare has, the physicians have it, the nurses have it, all our allied forces have it, but we are often in positions of great responsibility and have very little authority. And so how do we lead? We lead through influence.
Brooke
Wow, thank you for that. I had never even thought about that first part that you said about when someone calls you a follower, because right when you said that, I thought all those negative thoughts came into my head too, but for some reason that does sound different than followership versus a follower, but it really is one and the same. So I think that that definition that you guys have come up with is way better than the one that originally was attached to it. Thank you.
Rahul
Yeah, this is Rahul. Thank you for that. I had the same negative reaction when I heard the word first, and I think a lot of our listeners might have too, because a follower follows orders. But I'm reminded of a friend of mine, he was a fellow med student, and when we were in our surgery rotation, so this would be the equivalent of doing a sub internship. So finally year of medical school, the surgery chief resident would say about him. He not only does what we tell him to do, but he'll go the extra step and follow through on it and anticipate what else could come up and try to come up with a solution for that. So I think listening to you and reading your work has made me change my frame from somebody who just follows orders to somebody who's now a key part of the team and understands that and over time can go the extra distance in many different ways as they grow to help the team.
Lauren
Yeah, absolutely.
Pete
I like to chime in here. This is Peter. Your story has, I dunno, it started, all my neurons started firing and leadership. I've been looked upon it from high school football throughout my whole career and my philosophy, I guess my leadership philosophy is to intrinsically get people to follow what I'm trying to do, but not really as a, I'm better than anyone, but the direction to help everyone be better rather than extrinsic and forcing them to do it. Knowing when I was nurse manager, I knew I had the authority to do certain things, but that's not the way I like to operate. I like to get them to see what I'm trying to do and value it and buy in because then when I'm not around, it's going to continue and I don't have to be babysitting whatever it is my project or all that good stuff. So that's where it brought me. So thank you.
Lauren
It's funny, I think both your stories hit on something that's really important about followership. So Rahul, your story is how do leaders get selected? They often get identified by being really good at followership principles, right? It is the going the extra mile, it's the taking the ownership, it's the initiative, it's the bringing the people along with you. You sort of naturally end up in this situation where people want to give you some authority and put you in charge. And then Peter, on your side, you've gotten really comfortable with those skills where you can give those back to the people you're leading and you don't have to be authoritative because they feel inspired to follow you. So two ends on the up and quite, but I think you're both hitting really important aspects of followership
Brooke
That kind of goes into why does being an effective follower matter for anyone who's learning to lead?
Lauren
Yeah, again, I think it goes back to how do leaders get selected. So first of all, I will say I do not think that everybody needs to or wants to become a leader, in which case you're going to spend most of your career in a followership role. Even if you're aspiring to become a leader, you're going to spend most of your career in a followership role. And I have yet to meet a leader who wasn't responsible to someone accountable to someone. Maybe that's an immediate boss, maybe it's a board of directors, but every role that you have has some component of service resuming responsibility to something else. So there's a followship component thread that goes along to it. If you are aspiring to be a leader, again, how do we identify our leaders? We identify our leaders before we've ever given them authority, before we've even ever thought about it.
So what are those traits and values? Those are bringing people along collaboratively, working, taking ownership, challenging when something doesn't seem right or is going wrong. That's probably one of the most important aspects of followership is having that willingness to say, I think something is going wrong. It's all of that consistency that we see that helps people rise on the leadership journey and sort of ladder. So if that's important to you, I would say followership is a foundation to build on. The last thing I'll say is that followership gets a little trickier. The higher up on the leadership rung you are. And when you've established your own brand, your own reputation as a leader, but you have a boss, it's so important to bring your followership skills to that relationship. So I'll talk about this from the perspective of the leader. You've surrounded yourself by probably a core group of people that you really rely on and you're counting on them to give you ideas to hold you accountable, to challenge you. But then also once you all leave the boardroom or the conference room, go out there and support the initiatives. And so if you're not comfortable in that role, it can get really sticky and you end up sort of stepping on your leader's toes maybe in a way that you didn't intend to.
Brooke
Thank you for sharing all of that. And I think it's very true that we spend so much time as a follower. I feel like to this point, maybe just because of where I am right now, I've been a follower pretty much the entire time. I haven't really had any big leader roles. So what are some tips or practices that you recommend to being a better follower?
Lauren
Great question. So there's a lot of them, which is good because you don't have to practice all of them, you just have to practice some of them. I would say maybe before we get into tips or tricks, I would like to talk about the different kinds of followers and the behaviors I think that we see in followers. There are lots of different versions out there. And again, going back to the earlier part of our conversation, a lot of the depictions and archetypes of followers has a slightly negative overtone to it, with the exception I would say of Iris Shale who describes followership in his book, the Courageous Follower, and I still use it, I use it in my coaching, I use it in my mentoring because it really resonated with me and I think it's probably the depiction that I think translates best to healthcare.
So he talks about four different types of archetypes of followers, and he describes them based on two things. So that's their willingness to support their leader and I'll say change as well. And then their willingness to challenge them. And so if you were successful at both, then you are a partner. So these are people who are coming up with ideas, they're going to support change, but they're also going to challenge their leader. They're going to go into their office and say, I feel like we're off track here. So those are partners. Then there's implementers. So these are folks that like a project, they like change, they're willing to support it, but they're not necessarily going to challenge the leader if they feel like things are going awry. There's a resource. So these are the low support for change in their leader, low willingness to challenge their leader.
That can sound a little negative, but I also really like to think about these as my subject matter experts. These are the people who come and they do a good job, they go home, they don't have the bandwidth for the other stuff, which may be okay depending on where they are in life, but not going to stand in the way of change, not going to tell people if they think things are going wrong. And then there's the individualist, which is low support for their leader or change, but highly vocal and challenging. I would say most of us have usually worked with somebody like this, and that's because they tend to take up a lot of airtime in meetings. They always have the reason as to why something's not going to work, and they're going to let you know they're going to tell you all the reasons why we shouldn't do it.
One of the things that I think is really pivotal about sharif's work though is that none of the four is innately negative. You can be effective as a follower depending on what your base model is in each of those. And I really like to think about them as dynamic. So maybe I can be a partner, I strive to be a partner, but maybe I can't always be a partner. So those are the kind of archetypes I like to think about in terms of the different kinds of followers. And then for the behaviors, kind of switching to that, going back to Shayla, if he describes these as six different courage’s so to speak. And in a way I think that really pays honor to the fact that the type of things that we're asking people to do to be effective followers, much in the same that we ask them to be effective leaders, this can be hard stuff.
So he has the courage to serve. I would say in healthcare we are no stranger to serve. We serve a lot of people. And here the challenge is to really think about what you do in service to your leader and to your organization. There's the courage to assume responsibility, the courage to challenge. I would say that's probably I find the one that people have the most anxiety about is the courage to challenge their leaders, the courage to participate in transformation. We're very good at that in healthcare, right? Pi qi projects, we've got it. We like transformation, the courage to take moral action and then the courage to speak to the hierarchy. And what he means about that is feeling comfortable that if you're the person to give a brief or presentation to your boss's boss to talk to the C-suite, that you feel courageous enough to step into those shoes.
So those are the behaviors of effective followers. There's one other thing here that I want to add that I think are important. Let's call them personality traits of anybody who's looking to effectively influence. And we've hit on some of these a little bit through your stories. One is consistency. So I'd like to think about this as your brand. You should feel really confident when you're not in the room, what people are saying about you. That reliability of bringing people along, not shaming people when they're wrong goes a long way to trust. The second is the ability to find common ground. And this is really important when we talk about the behavior of challenging. So being able to find common ground is a really good place to start from if you're going to challenge somebody. And then the last one is optimism. And I'm not talking about blind optimism. So nobody wants a rainbows and puppy dogs conversation when the house is burning down. We do want acknowledgement of barriers and challenges, but we also want to follow and partner with people who believe in the fortitude of the team to still be successful to get things done. So overarchingly, that's the way I sort of think about maybe what the different archetypes flavors of followers are and some of the behaviors that support effective followers.
Brooke
Yeah, that's great. Thank you so much.
Rahul
So I want to build on something that Brooke began with, and then Lauren, thank you for walking us through. And I think it's putting it in a slightly different spin, which is this journey of the follower from becoming like, I don't know who I am or do I even belong here to becoming the superhero, so to say? And I can, if Brooke is okay, I'm going to give her example. And a lot of us deal with leaders who are not perfect though working with a flawed leader like me, for example, on this podcast. And the journey began when she decided, okay, let me just do this and take a chance. These people have never done a podcast. They have never done production. I have never done it either. And now I'm going to show up to be a producer of this podcast because I believe in the mission or the work maybe.
And so that's where the journey is beginning. Just picking the right project or the people that you're working with then is the journey of doing the job. You're designed the part that no one likes, but there's a difference in how you do it. The way Brooke did it is to make sure that she's learning with an expert we had on podcasting and working through the ropes and using chat GPT or whatever resource we have. And if she's not able to do it, then saying, Hey, I need help or how can I do this? Struggling through it, versus it could have been that I'm emailing her, have you done this? Have you done this? So if she can't do it and something's not happening, she would come to us or will come to us that I'm not. So there's that reliability I think that you talked about.
And I think the journey doesn't stop there. Like you said, it evolves to now not only am I reliable and I'm going to follow through, but I can begin to anticipate what are the things this team is going to need. And so she's done that for a long time now, where, okay, what's our schedule of releases or who are we going to bring in next that is going to be helpful to us and be a part of that conversation? So we go then from that anticipate to, like you said, having the difficult conversations, challenging maybe. So I or some of us will pull her in four different directions and let's change the schedule or let's get six more guests and there'll be someone doing a reality check. We don't really have the time to record them or to release them, and is it really going to be helpful to our listeners?
And then I think finally is the stage where you become the co-creator. So at this point you are here because Brooke reached out to you and talked to you, and a lot of our guests will want to know her questions and her perspective. So I think this project could easily go ahead without me, but it's very difficult to move it forward without her. So she's at this stage where she's become the co-creator and a leader of sorts, and I think it just illustrates the journey of a follower. So I'd love any comments you have on that as well.
Lauren
I love that. I think it's a really important story and it starts with this, I will say assumption of responsibility. I've given a task, I don't necessarily know how to do it exactly, but I'm going to dive in. I'm going to bring well-researched solutions, I'm going to find help. And in that you bring the other people on the team along and you build trust and you're able to challenge each other. And this is where individual behaviors affect team dynamics, affect culture. And you're right, sometimes you won't always be paired with an easy leader to work with, but that's just one person that we're interacting with and that we're influencing and our day-to-day, there's a whole host of other people, particularly in healthcare that we're influencing and how you show up and how you tackle your problems and how you collaborate with other people impacts them. We sort of say you're kind of in a ninja way displaying some of these traits that we really want everybody to try to get good at so that we all come up though. That's a good story.
Brooke
Thank you so much Dr. Anand, for your kind words and everybody, and you are a good leader, not a bad leader at all. So
Rahul
Maybe just goes to show that the follower, a good follower can also coach and improve the leader with the right kind of work together and feedback over time.
Lauren
Yeah, I think that's right. We're inextricably linked leaders and followers and we should be supporting each other.
Rahul
I think I'll just add that if the follower is reliable and is progressing, then the leader's role does change from, because in the beginning they need a lot of direction and even support. But then as the journey progresses, then the leader's role changes to what is this person today and what do I see they can become. And sometimes the follower may not know this, and it's our job as educators especially to see people for who they can become, not who they are today. I think that's one part. And so one has to be constantly thinking like, okay, how can I help grow this person and gradually increase that temperature or must build that muscle over time as the follower is progressing well versus a leader who may not let you grow. And then the follower might get frustrated that I'm doing so much and there's no growth here and maybe I'm going to grow somewhere else. So I think that's how the diet is also very intricately related.
Lauren
I think it's an important point. And I will say we are very comfortable with that progression, so to speak in medical training. That's exactly how we do it. You come in, you're a clean slate and we dump knowledge into you and then we put you in experience and we just, we're constantly slowly turning up the temperature. You're getting feedback all of the time with this very distinct goal in mind that you're an independent practitioner and we're very comfortable with that. And for some reason, as soon as we step out of our clinical role, we forget that we learned how to do it and the skills really translate. So if you've been on a multidisciplinary team, I'm sure all of you have been on a multidisciplinary team, if you've had to have a difficult conversation, you've practiced a lot of these skills and they do translate. They're just as impactful at the bedside as they are in a conference room.
Brooke
You mentioned feedback and I know that you also speak a lot about feedback. So I guess in this context, how do you get better at receiving feedback as a follower if it's negative or positive?
Lauren
That's the holy grail. I think this is such an important conversation. It could be its own conversation just separately, but receiving feedback is essential to followership, it's essential to leadership. All along the spectrum. If you're going to get better at something, you have to be able to receive feedback. And I like to think about that maybe in three big buckets. So mindset, what I'll call analysis, and then what we're going to call filtering. And so to start with mindset, in order to be able to receive feedback, I would say you've got to get yourself in this mindset that is on this parallel track. One I would say we're really familiar with in healthcare, which is growth mindset, which is being willing to hear new information and exposed to new ideas. Pretty good at growth mindset. The next one I'm going to say is we'll call it recalibration mindset or reexamining and challenging what we think we already know and believe.
Adam Grant wrote the book Think Again, one of my favorite books, I think a lot of leaders really resonate with this book and he talks about thinking like a scientist when it comes to rethinking, and it makes me chuckle a little bit just because scientists get feedback in this very objective way, like the experiment worked or did not work. And wouldn't it be lovely as leaders and followers if we could get this very objective type of feedback, but we don't. We get it from people. And so it has a lot of nuance to it. Who gave it to you? How did they say it? What did they say? So we have to be willing to recalibrate. And I would say if we don't come to the mindset of growth and recalibration, we can't ever get to analysis because we won't make it past. Ouch. I have very few people say to me that they're struggling to process the positive feedback that they got.
I have a lot of people come to me and say they're struggling to process the critical feedback that they got, and it's the critical feedback that's required for growth. So we want to be able to recalibrate and then we want to analyze. And I think it's important to have a framework in which to analyze what was said, maybe what wasn't said. And there's a lot that goes into that. So I won't go through all the details, but that's who said it, what did they say, how did they say it, how was it delivered? And when we're done in analyzing the feedback, then we're going to filter it and decide is this something that we need to put in action? Now I needed to hear this. Or maybe it's on the whole other opposite. This was something that I didn't need to hear. It wasn't very helpful, in which case I'm going to disregard this and maybe even recover from it if I need to. So I think it's really important to be able to go through that process and receiving feedback. We talk a lot about giving feedback in healthcare and I will say I think giving feedback, giving effective feedback is definitely a skillset. I would say receiving feedback effectively is much more of a journey.
Brooke
Yeah, I completely agree with that. I think also the kind of feedback that you're getting, like you mentioned, plays a big part into how you process through it, depending on how hard it hits or those vulnerable spots if it's hitting there and how to process that.
Lauren
Yeah, a hundred percent. We don't start anything in a LL, any coaching or workshops or anything without the self-reflection piece of knowing where you are and how you receive things. Because a really important integral part to being able to get to a place where you can recalibrate or rethink.
Rahul
One thing I want to build on that is that the constructive or critical feedback especially, is a form of conflict. And I think this is not recognized in MedEd as much with the astel ask or the positive, negative, positive frameworks because it's either something you do not know about yourself or you know about yourself, but you're hiding it from yourself or others. And now it has come up. So if you're going to grow that persona of yours beyond what you already know and can do, then a recognizing that it is a form of conflict for both people. And then secondly, as you said, take time to process it and see who gave it. What's the context? Do they really know me? What's going to be most helpful to me and now I'm going to digest it and be able to grow myself? I think that's a nuance that wasn't clear to me until recently that it is basically a conflict and you have to think of it in the lens of a conflict as this is happening, whether you're giving it or receiving it.
Lauren
I really like that. And I like it specifically because I think we very rarely handle conflict on our own. And so in my group, we really like to get our clients and our M mentees to find a feedback partner to sort of unpack this because like you said, some of this, it's unclear to us, it's hidden from us. It's sort of our innate behaviors. We aren't aware. And so having somebody who's sort of willing to hold up the mirror a little bit and call you all on stuff is really helpful. The other aspect is the stuff that does hurt maybe isn't true. I think is also really helpful to have a feedback partner to kind of unpack that and say, well, was there something here I could use? What is that? And then how am I going to put that forward in the future? So I agree with you.
Brooke
Well, Lauren, thank you so much for this great conversation and for telling us about All Levels Leadership. So before we close, is there one message that you want all of our listeners to take away?
Lauren
The one thing I want you to take away is to know that I always get nervous when I talk to people about followership, and that's because of the innate negativity that comes when you hear the word follower or followership and the sort of conflict that can create. But I would really like to challenge everybody to sort of move past that and look towards what followership really entails and what it can hold for you in terms of being able to be successful as a peer, as a colleague, as a future leader. And if you want to get better at this, lean into this concept of followership because I really think it's a great bedrock which you can build on to make yourself effective really in any position you hold.
Brooke
That's great. Thank you.
Lauren
Certainly if anybody wants to explore followership or feedback or anything else that you have having a leadership challenge with, I would love to be able to support you. My team would be able to love to support you. So, check us out on our website, which is AllLevelsLeadership.com or same tag, any of the social media. We're on LinkedIn, Instagram, and Facebook, and we would love to connect with people.
Brooke
Alright, and thank you everyone for tuning in. So until next time, take care and keep learning and leading.
Brooke
Thank you for listening to our show. Learning to Lead is a production of the Quinnipiac University podcast studio, in partnership with the Schools of Medicine, Nursing and Health Sciences.
Creators of this show are Rahul Anand, Maya Doyle, Peter Longley, Amber Vargas and Brooklynn Weber.
The student producer is Brooklynn Weber, and the executive producer is David DesRoches.
Connect with us on social media @LearningToLeadPod or email us at LearningToLeadPod@quinnipiac.edu.